SOLVED - I can no longer do a Host Refresh on Win7 - NTLite problem or MS problem? Or both?

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pmikep

Active Member
I have spent the last few days trying to do a Host Refresh of Win7 using a wim, touched by the latest version of NTLite. (v 2.3.2.8526.) No matter what I try, it always fails about 2/3'rds into Setup (just after the 2nd reboot, where the screen goes into a VGA mode), telling me that "Setup can't complete." And that the computer will roll back to the previous version of Windows.

This on both my desktop and in a VM. (More on the VM test in a moment.)

I have been able to do a Host Refresh to the same Win7 using a wim I made early last year. (January 2021.)

But it doesn't work with a wim made with the current version of NTLIte.

So the problem seems to be following NTLite.

OR - it is following Time.

That is, I can make an argument that this is a Catch-22 Situation. (Sorry, non-native speakers - this is a North American idiom, from a book written in the 60's. (When hippies roamed the earth. (They're still around. They're just in government now.))) The Situation would go like this:

My current version of Win7 does not have KB4474419, SHA-2 Code Signing Support at this time.

I build my wim (for WIn7) in Win8.1 or Win10. So the process goes smoothly.

But when I do a Host Refresh, the SHA-2 Code signing isn't in the old Win7. And so I suspect that the Setup process aborts later in setup.

Does this sound like a reasonable hypothesis?

I plan to manually install KB4474419 into my current Win7 before trying the next Host Refresh, which should tell me if my hypothesis is correct. But it's 1 a.m. here and I've spent the last few days staring at screens.

In the meantime, perhaps we can take advantage of different time zones. Nuhi, perhaps you can demonstrate this problem for yourself:

Take a Win7+SP1 64-bit iso (US English) and install Home Premium in a VM. (I use VBox.)

Then take that iso and, using NTLite, bring it up to the Convenience Rollup, per my Preset. (So just three updates.)

Use the setup.exe from that wim to Refresh the vanilla Win7.

(I had to add GuestAdditions to VBox to transfer the wim. But that shouldn't affect this experiment.)

See setup refuses to complete for you too.

UPDATE: I should point out that if you do a Host Refresh using the same first WIn7+SP1 wim, then setup completes.

So it seems as soon as NTLite touches the iso with an Update, then something breaks.

(For grins I will try simply removing fonts, languages, keyboards to see if that will compete. (Trying to pin down where the problem lays.))
 

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NTLite Problem or MS Problem? Or both?
You have forgotten our old friends, Brainfart and Pebkac.

Imaging if you worked for a company called Brainfart and Pebkac and you answered the phones, "Good morning Brainfart and Pebkac. How may i help you?" :D
 
Time now (here) is 7 am.

I manually installed KB4474419 into my current Win7 before trying the next Host Refresh. It still failed to Host Refresh.

So the SHA-2 Code Signing isn't the problem.

So it must be that something changed in NTLite.

I have an old May 21 version of NTLite that I might be able to try. (I wonder how "rolling back" will affect Activation?)
 
This isn't a workable update list. W7, unlike W10 or later, is a stack of interlocking puzzle pieces due to weird dependencies.
W7 SSU isn't cumulative, you need a complete set of proceeding updates.

https://www.ntlite.com/community/in...-updates-download-list-2018-02.141/post-12544
  • SSU stack (SHA-2, SHA-1, 3552, 0628, 6952) <-- ALL OF THEM
  • SP2 (5574)
  • Platform (0838)
Click to expand...

EDIT -
3552 requires SHA-1
0628 requires SHA-2 and 3552
6952 (or latest SSU) requires 0628

W10 always had SHA-2 support, it can process anything in W7 images. But when you do a host refresh, W7 needs SHA-2 again if you have newer updates. Proper SHA handling is NOT an optional feature for security reasons.
 
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Okay, I just tried bringing Win7 SP1 up to Convenience Rollup using an older NTLite, v 2.1.1.7917.

Interestingly, when I added the Convenience Rollup KB, NTLite told me that I needed two more KB's, both SSU's.

KB459210 and KB4474419, both issued WAY after the date of the CR.

Anyway, I thought that perhaps adding these extra SSU's would fix things. But no, I still cannot update Win7 SP1 using Host Refresh in my VM test.

I was going to try an even older NTLite, v 2.0.0.7742. But - and this is something I've not fully understood about licensing - it said that I need to Activate it.

I'm fairly sure that I had activated it in the past. I thought that I was still be able to use it, but without newer features.

But it wouldn't let me do the Updates.
 
Just WAG'ing around, I found this item in an older Change Log:

Code: 
Components-Win7: Performance Counters removal would break setup if IIS kept

In my Sanity Test testing in the VM, I'm only integrating some old KB's - not removing anything.

Still, since I see that something used to break "setup," I mention it here.

(Also, I just Updated my original post. I'm going to try removing just Fonts, Keyboards and Languages on my VM test to see if Setup will complete from a Host Refresh. (To see if the problem is related to Updates or if it's broader than that, if the problem is that Setup breaks if the iso is at all touched by NTLite.))
 
I tried one of the simplest experiments that I could think of. I took a Win7 + SP1 iso and simply used "Trim Editions" to keep Home Premium. No Updates. No Removals. Just Trim the Edition.

Host Refresh setup completed - BUT, I got a BSOD (an IRQ problem) when it was time to enter Product ID into the Refreshed Windows.

So is it the trimming of images that's causing my problem? (Update: No. It appears to be a conflict with VBox Guest Additions and my wireless mouse.)

Sigh, more testing. (Seems like I always end up binging on NTLite. (I don't know nuhi has made a life out it. It's driving me crazy.))
 
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Its at times like this that having 4 or 5 updates for windows 10, however much the os sucks monkey balls, looks very appealling.

PhsMu said:
We've honestly crossed the threshold point of diminishing returns to keep a machine on them. Its too difficult, and with a properly customized and tweaked image you can get comparable performance from Win 10.
Click to expand...
 
Well, it turns out that I need to add KB2533552 to the list of SSU for Convenience Rollup to work.

Again, the latest version of NTLite does not Red X KB3125574 if this SSU is missing.

Now that I have put it in, my Refresh test (above) is working in a VM. (Although I'm still getting an IRQ problem. A VBox Guest Addition problem, I suspect.)

I might try another Host Refresh on my desktop today.
 
I havnt got KB2533552 in my EOL updates, the only place it is is in wsus offline.
Would you like access to my EOL updates for w7 Pro x64?
 
Clanger said:
I havnt got KB2533552 in my EOL updates, the only place it is is in wsus offline.
Would you like access to my EOL updates for w7 Pro x64?
Click to expand...

aboddi always recommended 3552. There's broken SSU component versioning that confuses WU. Now if you never use WU, or keep a stable stack of later updates, then it's not critical. Once you remove 3552, everything breaks.

Superseded in W7 is NOT always the same as replaced. There's no point re-inventing the wheel, the stable lists of W7 updates have been charted years ago. Just dig up one of many that works.

W10 avoids this hell by making everything CU.
 
garlin said:
Superseded in W7 is NOT always the same as replaced.
Click to expand...
Ahh. Hmm.

TLDR.
The "Group 1" list of updates i recently posted are the same basic minimal set to get w7 up to "sp2" are the ones i have been using for 3 maybe 4 years now at least. They work so why replace them? Any further updating will be built ontop of them. I used to use MBSA + wsusscn2.cab but later switched to WUMT + wsusscn2.cab.

To get my current list i updated with Group 1, ran WUMT offline, manually download, sort by date order, identified "superseded's" with NTLite, removed those from my list, installed the edited updates and ran wumt till it was fully satisfied. That might be why i dont have 3552. The current EOL capture im using has been very reliable.

Im hampered in that WU is blocked on Coffee Lake(grrrr) but i have 3 older pcs on which it isnt and could build an image and capture from those. But its over an hours work manually installing everything so i tried with wsus offline on a laptop but i got a driver missing error on a clean iso. grrrrrr. 4/5 updates on 10 is very highly appealing right now.

Having choices can be a real bastard sometimes :(
 
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Version of NTLite does not matter if the Win7 update integrated without errors.
If I understood the topic correctly, once you integrate any update to the Win7 SP1 ISO, it will fail host refresh?
OK, well... that's indeed weird and looks like a Windows problem.

Would it surprise you that I didn't even know Win7 can host refresh, note everywhere is that it's a Win10 feature - surprised here and will let you fill in the blanks.

Make sure all of the recommended (pre-checked) Win7 updates are integrated, not just a few.
Note not to tick any of the newer ESU-only updates, they cannot be integrated.
Same for the host, safest bet would be that both are updated, if host can be updated - maybe the reason for the host refresh is that it's broken, in that case at least add as much as it can.

If it fails again, was it working before, maybe the host is now different somehow, removed more?
Note that for successful Host Refresh the host and image must have Host Refresh/Manual Setup compatibility left enabled and those components not removed.
 
Ive had a thought(god help us all). pmikep's pc/cpu might be blocked by WU, if its his Coffee Lake system that might cause a fail. If i remember correctly abbodi86 said its only WU that is blocked but "would"(maybe?) be ok using cab files and dism.
 
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Thanks all. Well, I've been able to Host Refresh my Win7 in the past (not using the NTLite wizard, but by making a new wim using NTLite and then running Windows' setup). So it worked before. (Jan 2020 was my last refresh.)

I'm running out of ideas. I will remove Comodo completely to see if that's what causes setup to fail 2/3'rds into the installation. (It might have been a problem before in Win7. But, to my surprise, I was able to Refresh Win10 with Comodo still in place.)

If that doesn't work, then perhaps I did a "Clean Reset Database" during the past two years, which, the NTLite documentation says can inhibit a Refresh. (Albeit on Win10. But again, I've been able to Refresh Win7 in the past. And I had some success doing it the other day in my VM.)

Did I say that I was getting too old for this?
 
Okay, success. (Of sorts.) As has been said by Monty Python, "I have this terrible feeling of daja vu."

I was able to "refresh" Win7 to itself - what I call a Host Refresh, but what MS more technically correctly calls an "upgrade." (I think that nuhi was alluding to this fact in one of his comments above.)

But since I changed five variables at once, I don't know which one change - or a permutation of changes - was needed to make the upgrade work.

(I periodically do a "refresh" of Windows because with each new version of NTLite, removals don't break as many things as previous versions. And so I start anew with a fresh Windows installation and use the latest version of NTLite to do Live Removals. (In fact, I was surprised to see that sfc /scannow worked without error on my friend's 'Lite'd computer.))

I think the most important requirement is that a user must "upgrade" Win7 with a vanilla Win7 wim.

In other words, while a user can upgrade Win7 to Win8.1, or Win 7 to Win10, or even an early version of Win10 to a newer version of Win10, a user cannot upgrade Win7+SP1 to Win7+SP1+the Convenience Rollup. (Even though the Live version of Win7 might have the CR integrated in it already.)

I confirmed this in a VM too. When I tried to update Win7+SP1 with Win7+SP1+CR, Setup acts like it is working, only to fail at about the 2/3rd's point of Setup.

1) So that was the main change that I made. I used an OEM Win7+SP1 (with the only change being that I had integrated my AMD RAID drivers into the wim using NTLite) to upgrade my working Win7. Setup completed. From there I integrated the latest Updates Live and then I did Live Removals using my /forcelistcomponents Preset, then Remove Reinstalls, and so on.

FWIW, the other things that I changed:

2) I had installed the latest version of Comodo in my running Win7 just before the upgrade that worked.

I don't think that my older version of Comodo was preventing Setup from completing - but it might, with its pre-boot sniffing. I remembered to disable HIPS before starting the upgrade.

3) Related to Comodo, I had also pulled the Ethernet cable from my router before doing the upgrade that worked.

Again, ordinarily, I don't think that this would make any difference to Setup. BUT, I noticed that Comodo hadn't fully started itself when it didn't have a network to detect. And so, in a comedy of errors, I could make a hand-waving argument that perhaps Comodo did not interfere with Setup because it wasn't working because my NIC was disconnected. (I read on the web somewhere that someone also had problems upgrading his Win7, and found that Disabling the NIC solved his problem.)

4) Before this successful run, I had booted to my C: drive from a Live Windows CD and run a script to rearm SL Manager at the regedit level. I have a licensed DVD of Win7. But I haven't bothered to Activate it lately. (IIRC, the last time that I upgraded/refreshed my Win7, it was in the "This is not a genuine Windows" mode. IIRC, that did not bother Setup.)

5) There is a fifth variable that I changed. But I don't remember now what it was.

Update: Oh yeah, the wim that I used to do the upgrade was made with a version of NTLite from early 2020. (Not this year's version 2.3.2.8526.) As above, the only modification that I did to that wim was to add AMD RAID drivers (and remove the OEM storage drivers) from both the OS and from the boot wim. I don't think that the newer version of NTLite was problematic. But I document this change in a variable for completeness.
 
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