You CAN be too thin (Trimming with NTLite)

[pmikep]

This might end up being a Guide if nuhi approves and if I develop it more later.

After playing (fighting?) with Windows 7 and NTLite for a week to get to "The Perfect Win7 Install," I have a few philosophical observations about how to 'Lite. And perhaps a philosphy about the "best" way to tackle a Windows project.

The main thing I wanted to say now is that, like anorexia, your finished Windows iso can be too thin.

A case in point.

As I progressed through the week, building and rebuilding iso's, I kept finding more and more components to remove from Windows. Thinking that "less was more" (that is, better), I removed them.

But then, after going off on a wild goose chase to find a problem with one of my iso's, I learned about Windows drivers like the "Pass Through" driver.

Even though the Pass Through controller wasn't locked out on my Hardware List, I decided to keep it in a later build. I mean, who knows - maybe the Pass Through driver is needed during an install of something, and after it gets used, it doesn't show up in the Hardware List?

There seems to be some validity to this thinking.

For example, in my last build for this week (#44), I decided to leave all of the strange drivers under Windows Systems enabled, even though they weren't locked out by my Hardware List.

To my surprise, when I upgraded Win7 this last time, about twice as many drivers installed on the first boot of Windows. (Twice as many as when I booted Windows previously with a too thin iso.) Things like AGP - even though I don't have an AGP port on my motherboard. More stuff about drives. And more ACPI stuff than I had before.

Surprisingly, in the mid-week boots of Win7, where my iso was too thin, these missing drivers did NOT show up in Device Manager. If they had, I would have known to add them back in the next build.

But they didn't show in Device Manager. Which is one of the reasons I thought I should post this 'warning' about being too thin.

To put all this in perspective, these "extra" (but perhaps needed) drivers added only 200 MB to my iso. (1.7 GB total.) So hardly too fat.

I would say "healthy."

 

[Clanger]

If you are bilding an iso that is suitable for many machines then i always suggest going Lite, that means keeping all MS drivers and only remove 3rd party ones unless they are needed for a Compatibility option.

Going Thin is best for when you are building an iso for a specific machine and purpose. Then i would suggest doing live removal tests with all your chosen software installed and then 1 removal at a time, reboot, you soon find out when something breaks.

Some drivers may be Hidden so you will have to show them. What i would do is use a driver grabber tool with all your hardware plugged and seen by the OS then you can compare the actual files with the Drivers in Components.

 

[Kasual]

Things like AGP - even though I don't have an AGP port on my motherboard. More stuff about drives. And more ACPI stuff than I had before.

But they didn't show in Device Manager. Which is one of the reasons I thought I should post this 'warning' about being too thin.

To put all this in perspective, these "extra" (but perhaps needed) drivers added only 200 MB to my iso. (1.7 GB total.) So hardly too fat.

I would say "healthy."

7 x64 1.7 GB ISO?

I have mine 1.73 (with ~300 MB drivers) and i think is "healthy" (for now, just testing).

 

[Clanger]

Healthy is relative. In my opinion Stage1 is the best all round preset because it just cleans up an iso while leaving all windows components in.

 

[pmikep]

Well, Clanger stole a little of my thunder. I was going to suggest that the best way to do an install is to start a bit heavy to make sure that everything Windows needs is there, and then to trim incrementally using Live NTLite later.

Having said that, you never know what new hardware you might install later and I have found that Windows is particulary unforgiving if a crucial base driver wasn't installed when Windows was.

As for Kasual's 1.73 GB - that's where I'm at too. But you see, I didn't want to fixate on the "ounces." The idea here is to not worry too much about the weight (size) of your first iso.

 

[nuhi]

@pmikep, thanks for the feedback.
So your Other devices in Device Manager (yellow, not-installed devices) was empty?
Then mostly those are sub-drivers of sorts, usually tied to driver services.
Can you please attach the preset removing AGP, or any other driver you remember missing but not removed. In case of agp, make sure to have agp.inf (hardware support - agp component), pci.inf (if exists), mshdc.inf and machine.inf kept.

 

[Clanger]

Then mostly those are sub-drivers of sorts, usually tied to driver services.

There are usually some IDE and CPU drivers tied into the MS CPU driver etc, there is probabebly some others too floating around. Think they show up if you expand the MS XX driver in Components. AT install without your 3rd party usb3/3x chipset audio and display drivers installed you are looking at about 25mb oof drivers being used, if you back them all up, and seeing as many items use the same driver, machine.inf for example, you could be looking at 20mbs worth or less in real terms.

 

[Clanger]

1 thing i have noticed about going thin, beyong my last w7 barebone preset, is that if i reload that new folder, ntlite gives an "unsupported windows version" error. I think it is prbably the 2 Servicing Stack components but i havnt tried to track it down toi be honest. If ntlite screams screw you then their is a high chance what little is left wont even activate. Those 2 only total 35mb and do you think ii am that anal about this? Too right i am, but i need the result for liting and slipstreaming which wont happen if i use them, i'll have liting but no slipstreaming, mind you, i could always use custom wims.

 

[pmikep]

Just wanted to share my latest "perfect" Win7 Presets and install routine. So far this iteration of Win7 is working flawlessly, as far as I can tell. (If I ever refresh it again, I might add back Distributed Link Tracking Client in case that affects my removal of Libraries.)

Per my O.P., this is not so much about being thin as it is about working well. Functionality (and useability) comes first. Removing bloat comes second.

This "perfect" install requires a licensed version of NTLite, since you'll be using the Live feature to do a Clean Up at the end (if nothing else).

This is for Win7 64 bit Home Premium. I'm guessing that a Preset for Pro or Ultra could warrant more removals.

Now, I started with an untouched Microsoft Win7+SP1.iso.

Using NTLite 1.7.x, (a pre-release beta), I made a copy of Win7+SP1 and then used NTLite to integrate the following KB's (six this time instead of my original five) to create a Base wim.

Windows6.1-KB2670838-x64.msu
Windows6.1-KB3177467-x64.msu
Windows6.1-KB3125574-v4-x64.msu
Windows6.1-KB2552343-x64.msu
Windows6.1-KB2834140-v2-x64.msu
Windows6.1-KB3172605.x64.msu

See Preset 1.

The only changes that Preset #1 makes is bring Win7 up to what I call SP2, or the Convenience Pack Rollup level. (Plus it adds in two KB's needed for mp4 work. (Which are also required for IE11 if you're going to upgrate to that later.)) No Clean Up at this time.

Oh - for my case, it also trims all but the Home Premium version, which simply makes loading the wim for the next stage a little quicker.

Be advised that, as of this writing, it appears that NTLite will remove KB2670838 when you run my Preset #2. If that issue isn't fixed when NTLite 1.7 comes out, then you'll need to manually install it after Win7 is fully installed.

After that Base iso was made, I made a copy of the Base and ran that through NTLite using my Preset #2.

In addition to some add backs from last time (thanks to Kasual's work), I also disabled the Clean Up of Updates for this wim from last time too. (Clean Up will be done later in a Live run of NTLite.)

My Preset #2 also has Windows Media Center in it, so that I can watch (and record) OTA TV here in the States. I had to leave a few components in my Preset in order for WMC to work correctly. (Which includes downloading the EPG.) You might not need them.

Also, this Preset is for a RAID install on an AMD motherboard. If you were to use this Preset without AMD RAID on your setup, be aware that you would likely need to add back the stock Windows Storage drivers, because I had to remove them to install AMD RAID. Also, because this is a RAID install on an AMD motherboard, I had to tell NTLite to remove all the Storage devices on the boot.wim and the PE.wim, and similarly, install the RAID drivers on both. (I also added my RealTek NIC driver. It makes working with a licensed version of NTLite easier for the Live Part.)

As for the PE wim, because I was doing a "refresh"/Upgrade to my running Win7, I had to preserve "Flag 9." That means I had to tell NTLite to keep the PE.wim.

However, I don't see the removals and driver additions to the boot.wim and the PE.wim being preserved in my Presets. So it looks like you'll have to do those manually if needed for AMD RAID.

I told NTLIte to make an ISO of this build, and I used Rufus to put that ISO on a bootable flash drive.

After NTLite finished, I ran "Setup" from Rufus on my running Win7 desktop.

That guided me through "upgrading" Win7. (So I "upgraded" from Win7 HP to Win7 HP. Basically a refresh of the OS. All my programs remained. You will lose your Activation when you do this. So you'll have to have a way to re-Activate Windows later. You might lose a few drivers too if you weren't smart enough to use a HWlist from your previous Win7 when you ran NTLite.)

Once my new Win7 was running, I ran a few programs that needed IE8 to work. (Notably, Dragon NaturallySpeaking.) Then I used the Windows' Feature Removal to remove IE8. (Apparently, according to NTLite Live, when you let Windows remove IE, it leaves behind some things, like the IE GUI, that perhaps Dragon needs to work correctly.)

After a reboot, I used WSUS Offline Updater to install only Security KB's.

As I said above, at this time, NTLite had removed KB 838 after I ran Preset #2. So I had to manually reinstall it.

After booting again, I ran NTLite Live. I set it to do a CleanUp of Updates and it pulled out 3 GB of stuff. (!)

For those who care, my final size came in just a bit over 4 GB. More crucially though, everything is working perfect so far.