2nd ISO creation

T

TheNamelessPoet

New Member
Hello all. I checked out https://www.ntlite.com/community/index.php?threads/guide-ntlite-for-beginners.2979/ and a few other posts here after making my 1st ISO.

Now that I understand SORT OF what I am doing. Is there a good place to find out what each thing actually does, and what is "connected" (as in do not remove Piece A, because it is connected to Piece Q even though that makes no sense). I would like to remove everything I can from the new Windows 23H2 and do a fresh install on 2 of my PC's. I am not looking for someone to make an ISO FOR me, I want (or at least would like) to make it myself so when all goes haywire and I break everything it is only my fault lmao.

I am HOPING I did not miss it while searching. If so feel free to link it and I will head to that thread, but I did not have luck when I searched. Honestly, searching can be a PITA when you don't know what to call it lol
 
TheNamelessPoet said:
Is there a good place to find out what each thing actually does, and what is "connected"...
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It's a good question, but the short answer is no, and there won't be unless hardcore individuals set out to try to document everything into some kind of library for public viewing. Ironically, this has actually been done already in theory, but because members haven't been sharing a Wiki or something over the years, everyone's individual knowledge hasn't always been communicated publicly, and so most of that information you are looking for (file dependencies) doesn't exist, except when it's noted inside NTLite or through a forum search.

The Wiki has been brought up in the past as a suggestion for NTLite, but the developer isn't as interested in that approach, because he would rather try to solve it by making NTLite more intuitive, and to handle complexities for you, with compatibility options to protect dependencies, as well as engineering out the convoluted parts of tweaking Windows. NTLite gets updated very frequently, and the developer often speaks 1 on 1 with the veterans here to get feedback, as well as keeping tabs on the forum posts.

Microsoft does not document their dependencies or how things are connected under the hood, so that's the real reason why all of this is so unknown. It's only through experimentation that we discover and document these things here. The reason Microsoft and other developers don't provide this information, is because they all expect the entire operating system to be intact, since Windows was never touted as being modular, and so if a file is missing from Windows then it can be assumed it is the user's fault or due to malware.
 
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TheNamelessPoet said:
I would like to remove everything I can from the new Windows 23H2 and do a fresh install on 2 of my PC's.
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This needs to be addressed by itself, because it's so dang important and it has come up way too often lately, and seems like the trend is getting worse, especially with the LTSC stuff coming up more frequently. I don't think it's the fault of NTLiter users though, I think there has to be some popular resource out there, where a guy is yelling from the rooftops about how everyone should be using the absolute latest of everything, which has somehow turned into the masses wanting to use unofficial builds and updates not intended for public consumption.

Unless someone has a truly valid reason for downloading unofficial versions (23H2) or other insider/preview/developer updates, everyone should stop doing it, or at least stop making posts about how things don't work as intended, because those are all self-inflicted issues and aren't the problem of NTLite or its veteran helpers. In other words, unless you are a bug-hunter on a quality control team, you don't want to install this stuff.

The point of NTLite is to optimize Windows, which is essentially broken down into the categories of performance, security, and customization. Installing alpha software goes against all of those things, because buggier Windows builds have lower performance, more security flaws, and lack customization since features are unfinished. In addition to that, NTLite has to be updated by the developer for it to fully handle all these builds and updates, and that's not a priority until they become official, because there is too much other important stuff on the to-do list.

I don't know who this guy is on the rooftop. I don't know what he wants. If he is looking for ransom, I can tell him that I don't have money. But what I do have is a very particular set of skills, skills I have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make me a nightmare for people like him. If he lets the insider/preview/developer updates go now, that'll be the end of it. I will not look for him, I will not pursue him. But if he doesn't, I will look for him, I will find him, and I will end him.
 
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TheNamelessPoet said:
I am not looking for someone to make an ISO FOR me...I want (or at least would like) to make it myself...
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I split this into separate spoilers, because there's a lot of lurkers out there and most people fall into the first section below, since they don't have the motivation to really learn anything, they only want to be spoon-fed on how to make their computer faster, and that's totally okay. I just want to take the time to guide those people down the best path first, so they don't try to go a different route and end in failure.

Most people could do one of the following, allowing them to quickly go back to their normal lives:
1) Use a built-in NTLite template, and whenever you come across any issues, such as software not working, make a post in the questions section of the forum, and the developer will fix the template.

2) Use a member's suggestions, which would be something like the GamerOS preset or the Optimized Image guide, and if you encounter problems, make a post in the relevant thread and those authors or another veteran will help.

Note: For either option, finalize it by making a new image with the update, cleanly install Windows, and go back to normal life. Also, don't make the helpers lives miserable here, by trying to also install all of your own tweaks and tools, and then blaming bugs on our work here, when the true culprit is the bad tweaks people are using. If you don't have the skills and knowledge to make modifications, just use the guides, presets, and templates as-is, rather than breaking them with bad tweaking and giving us the errand of fixing it for you.

When it comes to building your own image from scratch, here's my thoughts on people wanting to learn:
The biggest problem we see here is the masses don't have the skills and knowledge to fully tweak modern Windows. Ever since Vista and beyond, the operating system's components and dependencies have substantially increased as the builds developed, along with the size of the registry, meaning the number of tweaks, snake oil, and potential conflicts is off the charts. Tweaking XP is like taking candy from a baby, in comparison to tweaking Windows 10 and 11, which would be like taking candy from the Terminator.

Since most people don't know how to troubleshoot very well, they set themselves up for failure because Windows is exactly like the concept of Mathematics. You must have a solid foundation, in order to put the extra building blocks on top, to reach something advanced, such as Calculus. You can't jump into the advanced stuff without progressively mastering the beginning and intermediate skills first, or you'll likely fail.

The solution here for the guys that have the motivation to learn, is to buckle down and go through all the guides and do them, whether you need that information or not, because the eureka moments from the hands-on experience you gain while physically doing the steps are priceless, and can rapidly bring people up to speed. The only other options are to figure it all out the hard way on your own, which can take years, or hire someone to walk you through and explain it verbally, such as in a classroom or something similar.

Once someone is decent at troubleshooting, understand the basics of what's going on under the hood, knows how to manipulate the registry, how to use third party tools, and so forth, they can start to spend time adapting guides to their specific needs or building their own image from scratch, now armed with the skills and knowledge necessary for success.

I need to clarify, nobody has to use my guides. All I mean, is find some credible resources and read through them, then take that information and do further research of your own. Also read documentation (known as white papers) on Windows features you are unfamiliar with, which will appear in Google searches with the URL of learn.microsoft.com when searching with the right keywords, which someone would discover by reading through and actually doing all the guides.

A summary of this reply and the previous ones I made on this thread:
I want to reiterate that I'm not picking on OP, he happened to ask some great questions that come up frequently, and to me the detailed responses make more sense here, because this is about helping lurkers get on the correct paths sooner, saving them and the helpers time in the long run, so the forum isn't constantly repeating the same questions and answers every week, as it has been.

With all that being said, NTLite could use some updated documentation, such as a full blown guide that explains each NTLite feature, with screenshots. I've been trying to do a lot of that heavy lifting with all my guides, so I'm not sure if updated NTLite documentation is as high priority as it seems right now. I'm all ears from hearing from actual newbies though, and I think Nuhi (NTLite developer) would be interested in that too. It is easy for the veterans to lose sight of how confusing things were when we were newbies, and sometimes we need to revisit that.

That's all I got for now. I hope at least some of this helps someone out there.
 
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This is ALL fantastic info thank you all! I'm going to go over it again next week when I can digest it even more thank you!

Hellbovine, that is a fantastic point about the troubleshooting. Guess ill be pouring over more guides soon lol
 
Oh, and don't worry, I don't take it as picking on me at all. The worst possible response to someone asking a question is "Did you even google it?" because the amount of bad and misinformation is WILD nowadays from when I was younger. Not to mention if you found something that was 1-2 months old you wouldn't think twice about using it, if it seemed to be accurate. And yet, Windows updated in the last week and if you didn't realize it was coming you could be doing it all for naught.
 
I have been poking through these guides, fantastic work btw!) And I have come across a question.

Is there a way to have Windows do the security updates but leave out the other updates that may reinstall some of the things you have removed. Edge, and whatever that AI crap they are now forcing down our throats?
 
Cumulative updates are cumulative, so whenever a partial re-install happens you must do a Remove Reinstall on the live system.
That's simply the price you pay: either stop all future updates, or clean up again after every update.
 
TheNamelessPoet said:
Is there a way to have Windows do the security updates but leave out the other updates...
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In my mind I'm imagining what you are asking is if Windows Update can be left on automatic, but only allow it to install critical security updates? That way you have the best of both worlds, minimal or no issues with things being reinstalled, but also having extra security. If that's what you are after, I feel like it might be at least partially possible in theory, but I have yet to see it in practice. Here's my thoughts on that:
From what I understand, LTSC is basically exactly what you are asking, and I haven't played with those editions yet, and I don't want to get into all that since it will get us off-topic, but if I were wanting to investigate your question, I would start by installing a copy of LTSC and capturing the entire HKLM, HKCU, and HKU registry trees, then comparing those against a Home/Pro install of the same build.

This might reveal some of the keys required to make this work, since the goal here would be to mimic LTSC's registry values regarding Windows Update features, without having to use LTSC. That's where I would start anyway, and it would lead me to more Googling and further experimentation, possibly resulting in a set of a few registry keys that accomplish this.

I can't work on that right now though, my to-do list is overwhelming presently, and this will require a lot of reinstalling Windows, so projects like this I put off until later. If you work on it and come up with information or hit a snag, let me know and I might have ideas to throw at you.

Otherwise, the easiest method that achieves what you want, is to use NTLite's built-in Windows Update feature, which can download and install updates to both a live Windows desktop or integrate them directly into an image, and you can pick and choose the updates, it doesn't force anything. This works out well too because then you can quickly handle the reinstall issues from the tool, as Garlin mentioned.
 
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Security-only updates no longer exist in W10/11, except for standalone KB's like BIOS (SecureBootDBX) or Intel microcode.

Based on the painful lessons learned from W7 patch hell, there's only one kind of CU which provides both security fixes and features changes. There is only one path with cumulative updates: forward. Every Monthly CU is superseded by the Monthly Preview CU (which is basically next month's CU a few weeks early), which are replaced all over again in the next patch cycle.

This is deliberate so no security problems fall between the cracks. Either you're updated, or your not.

When components are provided in an image, you can pick which ones to remove. When components are part of an pending Update, you can't pick out separate pieces because they haven't been applied yet. It's only after the patching process is done, can you re-remove what's not wanted.
 
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