LTSC: does it still make sense with NTLite?

4nt

New Member
Hello all,
just joining, and glad to find this tool after years of manual installs.

As per the title, does it still make sense to use LTSC when we can customize - and automate - the entire installation?

I'm currently considering a move from Win7 Pro, as I now use more unsupported/deprecating software under Win7 than 10, at least until I can get a machine that can run both in parallel. I've been considering LTSC 21H2 (2021), but given M$'s bitchy move to remove it from the market, and seeing that most of LTSC's advantages can (apparently) be obtained by customizing 10 Pro, I'm having second thoughts. I've gone through Clanger's detailed thread (btw, thanks for all your work, mate), but still couldn't figure out a proper answer.

So I'd like to hear thoughts of more experienced people than me on this subject - preferably ones that have used or are using LTSC, and even better if they've used both LTSC and Pro with NTLite.

Moreover, I still have 2 Win7 Pro and 2 Win8 Pro licenses that can be easily downgraded to 10, which would help me save quite a few bucks as well.

Another thought is: I intend to run GPU-P'd VMs and/or containers (or maybe Parallels) on my next machine and am curious if it can be done from a Pro image, or would I indeed need LTSC?

Lots of stuff I know, :) so I'll be thankful for any pointers. Cheers!
 
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Well the hard part is even getting an LTSC version legit. If you can then just do that, because it'll save a ton of headache and you already completed half the tweaking this way by using that to NTLite and customize the rest to fit you.

Otherwise, look into Windows 10 21H2 Pro. It's got enough bugfixes and such, and there are enough programs out there starting to force people off of the older, popular versions like 1809, with patches and so forth. Some anti-cheat software for example won't let you play the game on 1809 because some of the gaming companies are starting to follow Microsoft's roadmaps and as older editions become unsupported these companies are patching their games/software to do the same, and kick off users with old editions.

Windows 11 is still a work in progress, it takes at least 3 years for a new OS to mature and weed out all the compatibility/driver/performance issues, just look at the game mode fiasco in Windows 10.

Also versions 22H2 will release in the latter half of this year, for both Windows 10 and Windows 11, fyi.
 
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My opinion would be if you don't know W10, start with Pro since the learning curve is easier. There's a ton of new features and settings to master, and LTSC has a long list of known gotchas. After you're comfy with W10 Pro in about a year, move on to LTSC.

Pro is about subtracting features. LTSC is about adding missing ones. Subtraction is always easier to do.
 
i been saying that for years
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Yeah, we're on the same boat here - I always say that MS releases are actually betas and they only start to become a thing after the first Super Patch (a.k.a. Service Pack). Took NT 4 of those, 2 for w2k and XP (though XP still needed another one), and 7 was such a historical milestone that to date it was the only that only needed one but was already usable even before that.

That's also why I'm not very confident about 22H2, you never know what it'll break or what new ways of extracting every last detail of your personal life they'll come up with before it's discovered and tampered. That's why I always prefer tried and tested. Thanks Hellbovine for the input.
 
My opinion would be if you don't know W10, start with Pro since the learning curve is easier. There's a ton of new features and settings to master, and LTSC has a long list of known gotchas. After you're comfy with W10 Pro in about a year, move on to LTSC.

Pro is about subtracting features. LTSC is about adding missing ones. Subtraction is always easier to do.
Good points. I'm actually halfway beween knowing and not knowing w10, as I've used it enough to know my ways as an user, but not as an admin - whereas 7 has been my playground almost as much as Linux - since RC, actually, lots of fun.

But I'd like to pick your mind on subtracting - I'm one to start disabling services until either I find nothing else to disable... or the system breaks. :) TBH I'm more tempted to pick an already stripped OS and strip it some more - then add whatever turns out to be missing - than go with my usual "tinker until it breaks" approach. :p Especially as this will be a work machine and I need it up fast. In this context, would you say it's still best to subtract?

Thanks and cheers!
 
4nt i recently did a safe lite preset for someone for ltsc 2019, will see if i can find it. it basically trims the fat but leaves the meat and bones. i barebone services to destruction.
 

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Good points. I'm actually halfway beween knowing and not knowing w10, as I've used it enough to know my ways as an user, but not as an admin - whereas 7 has been my playground almost as much as Linux - since RC, actually, lots of fun.

But I'd like to pick your mind on subtracting - I'm one to start disabling services until either I find nothing else to disable... or the system breaks. :) TBH I'm more tempted to pick an already stripped OS and strip it some more - then add whatever turns out to be missing - than go with my usual "tinker until it breaks" approach. :p Especially as this will be a work machine and I need it up fast. In this context, would you say it's still best to subtract?

Thanks and cheers!
Just to complement this point under the light of the questions in OP, my doubts are at the intersection of what you mentioned about the unknowns in LTSC (plus the possible more resources in Pro) and the hardships of even getting LTSC in the first place (plus the bonus of already having upgradeable Pro licenses). Balancing out this equation for me is the issue, so I appreciate your thoughts.
 
Wow, never knew W10 could get that easy on mem. Now you got me excited. :)

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I know it's a very uncommon question and it's VMs anyway, but any idea of DPC latency changes on bare metal?
havnt got the faintest idea, not a gamer or benchmarker.
a number of things did break but what was left made a very well behaved workstation :cool:
LTSC 2021 will have similar results based on my original observations.
we got a few of LTSC threads around here, have a search around.
 
So far in my experience, the biggest DPC issue is graphics drivers. I think the problem is with Windows 10 and presumably Windows 8 as well (I skipped 8 entirely and never used it) that the new "Start Menu Experience" crap is now integrated into graphics drivers and vice versa... After installing your drivers you can see it in the taskbar, you can click on Nvidia for example and it will show you the start menu and what types of OS features are currently using the Nvidia driver (like text input crap). I dunno why they decided to over complicate this new start menu, it's trash on so many levels.

Anyway, you get quite a number of DPC spikes from the graphics drivers now. I don't know if they go away as you cut more and more things in the OS, it might. The spikes aren't frequent though, so it's not like you'll see hitching from it, but the latency is high enough that it's concerning when they do happen.

I should clarify that I used the same 2 graphics cards I have at the moment in Windows XP and there was zero spikes.
 
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So far in my experience, the biggest DPC issue is graphics drivers. I think the problem is with Windows 10 and presumably Windows 8 as well (I skipped 8 entirely and never used it) that the new so called "Start Menu Experience" crap is now weirdly integrated into graphics drivers and vice versa... After installing your drivers you can see it in the taskbar, you can click on Nvidia for example and it will show you the start menu and what types of OS features are currently using the Nvidia driver (like text input crap). I dunno why they decided to over complicate this new start menu, it's trash on so many levels.

Anyway, you get quite a number of DPC spikes from the graphics drivers now. I don't know if they go away as you cut more and more things in the OS, it might. The spikes aren't frequent though, so it's not like you'll see hitching from it, but the latency is high enough that it's concerning when they do happen.

I should clarify that I used the same 2 graphics cards I have at the moment in Windows XP and there was zero spikes.
Uh-oh, that's bad news. The usual suspects have always been Wi-fi and some USB devices (notably, audio interfaces), which made it hell for live audio and video recording and other latency-sensitive uses - e.g. gaming and game servers as well. My last machine didn't last 2h with the early w10 it came with back in the day (that's why I acquired extra w7Pro licenses), DPC was all over the map. If video has now joined the game, maybe that's the reason. I still had to replace its wifi module, as it simply wouldn't behave even under 7 Pro. If video is now on the list, it might be an extra challenge, given that my some of the software I use is pretty GPU-intensive.

With that said, though, are you sure it isn't driver-related? I remember that it was the case with early Intel Wifi modules, some ATi (RIP) GPUs, and some nVidia as well (namely, 700M and GTX 900 series), that's allegedly one of the improvements of Studio drivers, so I'm curious if you tried that route.

Windows has had issues with I/O and *PU scheduling since at least Vista. It's even said that it runs better, latency-wise, as a VM under a Linux-based Type 1 Hypervisor than as bare-metal - I even read a few analyses, but never tested it myself. Some services were also known to increase DPC in W7 - Smart Card and USB CEF/CEIP come to mind IIRC, thus my question. But I'm derailing quite a bit from OP. :p

Fact is, if I'm to run GPU-P, DPC-l needs to be at the forefront of my considerations, as it will surely not decrease then - and that's why trimming down even services that could affect it are also on my watchlist.

Anyway, great responses, folks. Lots of food for thought already.
 
With that said, though, are you sure it isn't driver-related?
It's possible it's just the specific model/drivers I'm using. I haven't spent much time yet trying to see if I can fix it, because I've been focusing all my time on taming the OS first. Then once that's done I was going to look into this other issue. But I've ran LatencyMon on a clean Windows 10 21H2 install and it had perfect DPC except for the nvidia graphics driver kernel would ocassionally spike for no reason, idling at the desktop.

Eventually I'll try using older drivers and/or changing out the card to see if that matters.
 
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