Removed components re-appear after ISO creation. Is it a bug?

[BadHellie]

Hi, this is really my last attempt to get help understanding this puzzle, after which I have to give up. I would kindly appreciate Nuhi's opinion on this.

Using NTL 2024.12.10208 (x64, registered).
I downloaded my original Win10 22H2 ISO from uupdump.net, inclusive of all recent updates (*but I could verify that similar problems arise even with ISO images downloaded from Microsoft, with Rufus or from other non-official sources*).
I have attached my preset and NTL logs monitoring the following operations:
-Loading the original ISO (here named WINPRO10_22H2_x64_UP.ISO)
-Enabling my preset (Step3g.xml)
-Apply/Process to generate a destination ISO (here named NTLite.ISO).

What happens is that if I then reload the generated NTLite.ISO file in NTL, I see that four components which I removed with my preset are still in place, namely:
-OOBE
-Targeted Content Service
-Windows Feature Experience Pack
-Windows Update Service / Cumulative Update cache (LCU)
(I have attached the screenshots of these 'returning' components, note that their checkbox is unchecked because I had to apply my preset again just to detect them thru the lists)

I personally have no explanation why these four components are still in the destination ISO, but I suspect those "installed" or "staged" builtin updates are responsible.

But what is even more curious is, if I do a test and I apply my preset again to this intermediate ISO and I generate a third ISO, when I load the latter back in NTL I still see these four components ! As thought something really prevented them from being deleted.
Notice that I have disabled all protections under my total responsibility to break compatibility, including the topmost one in settings.xml.
What did I do wrong ? Or is it a bug ?
Thanks a lot.

 

[francis11]

And still using and old build - sorry to say.
Latest W10 22H2 from uup is here
And maybe soon you will listen and understand all the other inputs you have received through your other posts.
For the reappeared removals Windows is divided into language sections over the world - same goes for OFFICE, so not a NTL problem.

 

[francis11]

News

 

[tistou77]

I tested with Windows 10 22h2 19045
And indeed, the Windows Feature Experience Pack component still appears, to see with nuhi

For OOBE and Windows Update, I have this too (with Windows 11)
I don't remember why but it's normal

 

[francis11]

As backup is keept i'ts a part of Feture Experience Pack removed.
All a matter of dependencies not taken into consideration - just look in NTL notes for a component removal.

 

[tistou77]

For this nuhi should see to "split" the Backup part

 

[francis11]

Agree together with other anoynig stuff - thanks.

 

[BadHellie]

And still using and old build - sorry to say.
Latest W10 22H2 from uup is here
And maybe soon you will listen and understand all the other inputs you have received through your other posts.
For the reappeared removals Windows is divided into language sections over the world - same goes for OFFICE, so not a NTL problem.

When one does not understand, either he/she is stupid or who explains does not explain clearly or synthetically enough. Sorry.

 

[BadHellie]

I tested with Windows 10 22h2 19045
And indeed, the Windows Feature Experience Pack component still appears, to see with nuhi

For OOBE and Windows Update, I have this too (with Windows 11)
I don't remember why but it's normal

Thanks, this at least is an answer

 

[BadHellie]

Well please can somebody *summarize* in English for a stupid like me who doesn't understand ? Either:
1. It is a bug
2. I did something wrong (and WHAT, in one line)
Thanks.

 

[tistou77]

For WFEP, it's because you keep the Backup component, it seems
You have to remove it or see if nuhi can "split" it with WFEP

For Windows Update, it's normal that it's still there for me, but for you, you should just have the Cumulative Update Cache (LCU) component
And for OOBE, it's because a file is protected if I remember correctly

 

[BadHellie]

Thanks Tistou for your answer.

Oh, for the records & for purists, I have also
-Used a more up to date ISO (since somebody pointed out a newer one was available on uupdump)
-Updated NTL (my apologizes, I forgot auto update disabled, but my build was just few days off, not few months lol)
-Enabled protection again (so nobody can say I deserve no support for having disabled it )
It goes without saying that these did NOT fix the problem.

However, things do NOT sum up well to me.

1. I keep the Backup component because I don't want to lose the capability to create restore points and backup system images, and I suspect the Backup component is related to those, or I am wrong ? But if it were so, NTL should say that WFEP and Backup are connected, as it does in other cases, while in this case the two components seem *orthogonal* and no such dependence is put in evidence...

2. In my preset I must leave Windows Update Service in place (parent) and remove LCU (child), because I found empirically that removing Windows Update Service causes Start Menu and Search Box and likely something else not to work properly. Therefore I had to disable the Update Service in the Services section, without removing it. However, if I leave Windows Update Service and remove only LCU, as per my Preset, I expect to see the same in my generated ISO, i.e just Windows Update Service enabled and no LCU...

3. No, when a component is protected, you really can't un-check it because the checkbox is greyed out. I have disabled all protections and un-checked it of course.

So, my *suspect* is that at present NTL still fails to manage or track some mutual dependencies properly.

As for WFEP, at present the only way to remove it from my ISO is deleting the WFEP update from the list of builtin updates...

 

[tistou77]

1) yes that's what I was saying, if you keep Backup, there are the files related to Backup still present in WFEP

2) LCU will always be present (even if there is nothing to delete), it is a placeholder (possibly if an update is integrated)
So it's normal that you're still WU if you don't delete it
I delete the WU service in Offline, and WU in Live (if deleted in Offline, it breaks something but I don't know what anymore, it's been too long)

3) NTLite protects some component files that you don't see
When you delete a component and a file is needed for another function, this file is not deleted but you don't see it

 

[BadHellie]

Uhm, I fear I made some confusion about Backup, because I suspect something in my setup is different than yours... Here I have NO "Windows Backup" component listed in Components. I have instead a lot of 'junk' under WFEP, in its *description* (see screenshots): Client.CBS, Account Service, AppListBackup, DesktopSpotlight, DesktopStickerEditor, DesktopVisual, IrisService, LiveCaptionDesktop, LogonWebHost, MicrosoftGraphRecentItemsManager, RulesEngine, SpeechSynthesizerExtension, SystemSettingsExtension, VoiceAccess, WebExperienceHost, WindowsBackup, WsxExtensions.
So: I have NOT these components listed individually in Components ! They are just listed in the explanation for WFEP, which is likely a pack containing all them.
Therefore, I thought you were referring to backup features as those listed under Volume Shadow Copy instead, i.e Backup and Restore and System Restore, which I want to keep of course. Evidently, Windows Backup is still another thing - and no I don't need it.

So, in my case I can just remove WFEP, I have no other options... and as I said, the only solution I found to get rid of it is deleting the WFEP update (listed as "OnDemandPack").

As for WU, my goal is having a perfect ISO ready to be installed, without need to perform any further cleanup operations or tweaks 'live' once installed. Therefore, I have to keep WU component, simply disabling it in Services section (it doesn't harm anyway it seems). Also, if I *remove* WU component I cannot activate Windows it seems.

Well if NTL protects some hidden files then I must say its behavior is not very intuitive and will really puzzle beginners... I mean, one expects not to see any more in the final ISO a component which he removed in the original ISO, otherwise one thinks he did something wrong !

 

[tistou77]

When NTLite "protects" a file when the component is deleted, this component normally does not appear in NTLite anymore, except for OOBE, I do not really know why and I did not look

 

[BadHellie]

Well, and what about the Targeted Content Service ??? I cannot sleep if I know I have this sh*t in my installation !!!
It says "Explicit removal not supported" (?!?!? this would be the FIRST thing any NTL user would delete !!!!) -> so I had to disable the global Protection just to get rid of this insanity. In fact, by doing so I can uncheck it, but it is still there in the final ISO !!!!
How the hell I can i get rid of it ?? I am even ready to delete files from the ISO image by hand !!! Where is this stuff located ??? Hard to say for me...
PS. I would hate having to use another tool like maybe DISMTools only to get rid of these sh*ts now that I paid for NTL !!!

 

[AeonX]

When I remove only Windows Feature Experience Pack (MicrosoftWindows.Client.CBS) some files needed by other components are kept in the Windows\SystemApps\MicrosoftWindows.Client.CBS_cw5n1h2txyewy folder and after loading the image again the component is still there

Spoiler

ScreenClipping is possibly related to Capture Picker and or Capture Service, and InputApp is On-Screen Keyboard (Tablet PC).

Well if NTL protects some hidden files then I must say its behavior is not very intuitive and will really puzzle beginners

Without this you could not remove Windows Feature Experience Pack and other components without breaking other features nor remove certain components without breaking Windows installation. This is a good thing. In older versions of NTLite some components like these caused quite a lot of trouble and some were even protected and could not be removed.

It says "Explicit removal not supported"

There is a reason for this, many files if removed do not allow you to finish the Windows installation (Windows Setup). NTLite protects essential files.

I mean, one expects not to see any more in the final ISO a component which he removed in the original ISO, otherwise one thinks he did something wrong !

To be sure you can remove the component again and check if any files were deleted in Apply in NTLite, it shows the size and number of files/links removed.

 

[BadHellie]

Meh, I still cannot find much logic behind all that, honestly. I mean, NTL seems to track most of such dependencies, in fact if I remove certain components it warns you that something else depends on it, or that it depends on something else, whether you want to uncheck other components, etc. So my logic suggests me that the same should apply to WFEP, i.e when I try to uncheck it, a warning requester should popup telling that something else depends on it, whether I want to uncheck it as well, or such things...
Also, it is a fact that I can remove the WFEP builtin update (which, I repeat, is it the only way to get rid of CBS and all things contained in WFEP) without really breaking compatibility with anything (from my tests at least)...
In short, I still support the idea that if you remove a component (uncheck it), the same component should not be present in the list anymore when you reload the ISO - as it happens for pretty all other components...

Anyway, here is what happens here. I made a test starting from a 'virgin' W10 ISO removing only WFEP. During Apply/Process, WFEP files get removed (it says DONE - 19.6 MB). I then load the resulting ISO back in NTL, I see that WFEP is still present in the Components. So I uncheck it again, and repeat Apply/Process. Now the progress listing only says "Removing Windows Feature Experience Pack - Done" (no size). And in fact the CBS-something folder in windows/SystemApps is still there.
So thte only way for me was deleting the respective update.

However I would appreciate Nuhi's take on this.

A similar thing happens with Targeted Content Service. I remove it, but it is then listed again if I reload the ISO. I don't know which files/exe belong to it so I can't check in the ISO. However, this unwanted service is NOT listed in services.msc so I assume I am still fine...

 

[IronJosie]

For WFEP, it's because you keep the Backup component, it seems
You have to remove it or see if nuhi can "split" it with WFEP

For Windows Update, it's normal that it's still there for me, but for you, you should just have the Cumulative Update Cache (LCU) component
And for OOBE, it's because a file is protected if I remember correctly

Is there any documentation or indication, that one must deselect Backup to have WFEP fully removed?

Meh, I still cannot find much logic behind all that, honestly. I mean, NTL seems to track most of such dependencies, in fact if I remove certain components it warns you that something else depends on it, or that it depends on something else, whether you want to uncheck other components, etc. So my logic suggests me that the same should apply to WFEP, i.e when I try to uncheck it, a warning requester should popup telling that something else depends on it, whether I want to uncheck it as well, or such things...
Also, it is a fact that I can remove the WFEP builtin update (which, I repeat, is it the only way to get rid of CBS and all things contained in WFEP) without really breaking compatibility with anything (from my tests at least)...
In short, I still support the idea that if you remove a component (uncheck it), the same component should not be present in the list anymore when you reload the ISO - as it happens for pretty all other components...

Anyway, here is what happens here. I made a test starting from a 'virgin' W10 ISO removing only WFEP. During Apply/Process, WFEP files get removed (it says DONE - 19.6 MB). I then load the resulting ISO back in NTL, I see that WFEP is still present in the Components. So I uncheck it again, and repeat Apply/Process. Now the progress listing only says "Removing Windows Feature Experience Pack - Done" (no size). And in fact the CBS-something folder in windows/SystemApps is still there.
So thte only way for me was deleting the respective update.

However I would appreciate Nuhi's take on this.

A similar thing happens with Targeted Content Service. I remove it, but it is then listed again if I reload the ISO. I don't know which files/exe belong to it so I can't check in the ISO. However, this unwanted service is NOT listed in services.msc so I assume I am still fine...

Did you ever figure out, how to remove it?

 

[BadHellie]

I found nowhere mentioned of any dependency of Backup and WFEP. As I said, by now the only way I found to get rid of this literal pack of bloats was deleting the WFEP update in the builtin updates list, to generate a new intermediate ISO as starting point (since update removals cannot be stored in Presets, and I could risk to forget to do this operation by hand everytime).

As for TCS, it seems there is no way to remove it, not even disabling the master protection in settings.xml. You can uncheck it, but you will then find it again in the generated ISO. In fact, Windows.Services.TargetedContent.dll is present on the HD after install. However, I don't see it listed in services.msc after install (at least, I could not detect it, unless it is listed with a non-obvious name...) But I suspect it is now harmless, considering that I have removed pretty all unwanted bloats and services (almost 500 components lol), so I assume it is physically there but cannot be started.

I PM'ed Nuhi about these unexpected 'leftovers', as I was suggested to, but I got no reply so far...